Curse

yesitsrob · Mar 10, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kate Bloodspirit

Not out of pity. Most people don't even know what mesmers can do. The culture in Guild Wars is a Culture of "I Tarzan, you Jane, Gorilla waka-waka-waka" and there's only a small population that actually seeks the best for certain situations, which in most cases a mesmer brings to the table.

What's why there're so many w/mos, and so many monks. W/mo's because the mentality of brute force drive's their minds. And because the w/mo's can't keep with with their "self-substaining, self-sufficient" gimmik there's high demand of monks. And then there's all the crap that wraps around that, which is nuking eles and brute-force MM's.

For sure that's the easiest combination, use of brute-force. No class, no style, no cache, no nothing.

I agree, it's frustrating - but to be honest I think that's largely to do with PVE mobs being stupid, and the easiest and probably most efficient way to do almost everything is with nuking, tanking and a couple of monks... it's bullshit but that's how it is....

In PVE sure you could have a mesmer shut down a monk - but hell they are so stupid that you just get the tank to aggro everything round them and drop spitefuls and all other sorts of fun on them and kill everything there in about 15 seconds.

I really do hope they do something about PVE to make it somewhat of a challenge - thunderhead keep at one time was said to be challenging, this is of course a myth... but they even made that easier...

So I'm not really optimistic about the future pve either

Dav85 · Mar 10, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

if u really want to prove how a good mesmer is powerfull just try this:

pick up a random group with no monks.
go outside and attack a group of foes without doing anything, the mesmer stays back.
then return to town and try it again with the same group but doing all the mesmer stuff.
if the mesmer is good the second killing will be 35-40% faster and at the end the hp of your teammate will be considerable higher than before.

i like this "mesmer is not usefull" theory, because thanks to that a.net keeps making our skills more and more effective

Dav85 · Mar 10, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

if u really want to prove how a good mesmer is powerfull just try this:

pick up a random group with no monks.
go outside and attack a group of foes without doing anything, the mesmer stays back.
then return to town and try it again with the same group but doing all the mesmer stuff.
if the mesmer is good the second killing will be 35-40% faster and at the end the hp of your teammate will be considerable higher than before.

i like this "mesmer is not usefull" theory, because thanks to that a.net keeps making our skills more and more effective

Fantus · Mar 10, 2006, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyote

Then there have been hardly any mesmers in PvE since the game started because they're just so hard to play, and after almost a year people still dont know how good they are?

I guess there are more Mesmers in PvE than you'd think. They are not hanging around much in towns to find a group because nobody would take them anyway. Really, it gets old trying to convince people that you're actually useful. Most Mesmer players I know play in guild teams or with henchies. Looking for a PUG as a Mesmer is like trying to win the lottery. At a certain point people realize that this is a stupid thing to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyote

I play them in PvP but I just cant grasp how to play them in PvE because mobs are far too clever for me?

Whatever you say.

I wasn't referring to you in specific but to the community in general. If you understand Mesmers but prefer to play cookie cutter builds anyway, that's your choice.

spiritofdead · Mar 18, 2006, 12:59 AM // 00:59

I agree that Mesmers being left out in most places in PVE. A lot of people in real life are mostly unfair, unfriendly, selfish, or all of the above anyway, for you will most likely encounter those people in Guild Wars as well. Those people who left out Mesmers and/or some other profession are probably not a fair person in real life. It is understandable if a group you want to join already have a mesmer which they need other, but not when a group without a mesmer and you want to join them but they will not accept you then this is being unfair. You just have to accept the fact that there are more unfair people in this world than those are being fair to everyone.

yesitsrob · Mar 18, 2006, 01:33 AM // 01:33

i think good players are going to know what a mesmer is capable of, and that they can do feats such as soloing a mursaat boss... the thing is, 90% of the players in GW will not realise this, and this probably includes the mesmers themselves

Mesmers are probably the hardest class to play in pve, most pve mesmers are going to be pretty bad, and incapable of doing all these wonderful things that they can actually do... due to this, I would personally stay way away from mesmers in pve. Now a bad ele on the other hand can still do a crap load of damage, they may not be great but nuking in pve is a pretty brainless thing, doing these mesmer things isn't so brainless

Minus Sign · Mar 18, 2006, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Mesmer=Brains

That’s not a flame, and I'll explain why. Mesmers are the anti-class, designed to shutdown, turn away or outright squash the opposition with selective spells. the problem with such a class is that, in order for a mesmer to be effective, they have to first be aware of the monsters they are going to be fighting.

Most (good) mesmers are on their 3rd to 6th character. They have played the game through and know how to use it. But that’s not how most original mesmers got their start.

Mesmers are the outcast class because so many people started picking up their skills thinking "this will work great in X situation". And they were right.

The problem was, and people discovered this when they brought that skill along, that it is often very difficult to get specific monsters to place themselves into that compromising position. Trying to Power Spike a caster resulted in the mob not casting any other spells for a while, so your waiting Power Drain kept waiting...and waiting...and waiting...

"Screw this, I could be killing stuff" says the new Mesmer and swaps back to his Ele, using Meteor instead to hopefully shut down a lucky cast instead of Mesmer Interrupts giving him a sure thing. Target Lock, a term I used to use when referring to FPS Snipers who stayed zoomed into their scope and oblivious to their surroundings, is more effective with nukers, as they can just say "die" to whatever they choose and start casting spells.

This poor impression remains in many castors minds, making it hard for them to accept that you know something they don't. For many of in this forum, I say you've probably learned it by now. If you are one of the people I described above, pick up that mesmer and give it another try; you may have the experience to make a good character now.

5 things every potential mesmer (or group leader presented with one) needs to realize:

Your surroundings are your target, not just whatever the group is focusing on. This includes hench groups. Leaders; if a mesmer in your group is casting spells on a different target from the one your group is spiking, it is likely because that target is in a more compromising situation. In short, the mesmer, by ignoring target calls, is often doing his job. Prioritize his targets as your next in the spike order, so you can let him move on to softening up your next mob.

Your skills are powerful, but situational. Look for the situation, then cast your spell. Example: don't fucus on shutting down one Hydra's meteor/Fireball/Inferno combo. Instead, kill his meteor; then use rule 1. look around for the other Hydra that is just starting to get off his Meteor. Thats your next target, not the Inferno that will only hurt your tank.

You are not an ele. Your DoT rivals a Warrior’s, and you should be taking the “second” tanks slot, not the spikers. That means that you are a "wear-down" castor, bent on total destruction (Mana, skill and Health destruction) instead of just a quick spike that either works or fails. The groups you choose should reflect this, designed to stay alive more than just do damage, allowing the enemy to destroy themselves (and against PvE AI, this is not very hard to do.). A good tank can hold agro alone; its not your job and leaders should realize this as they build groups.

Speed is important. Just like slow connection/slow zoning monks are a potential sign of poor play over the horizon, so too is a slow mesmer (either due to internet connection or PC speed). Guild Wars is a server oriented game, meaning that the speed at which you cast your interrupt needs to be on par with your connection speed. Just because you cast Power Drain with time to spare, it does not follow that the spell will be interrupted if it takes 1.5 seconds for your interrupt to get back to the server.

Last, you don't need no stinking group! In fact, it is sometimes an advantage for you to solo. The last thing you want is for your interrupt spell to wait in a que behind the warriors axe rake and the Eles Fireball. Most missions are quite easy to solo as a mesmer; the trick is knowing which mobs you will be facing, so you can build around their strengths, turning them into their weakness.

MMSDome · Mar 18, 2006, 02:13 AM // 02:13

good proof is go do the monk quest in the desert ewhen you have to kill the eater of souls. That will show a huge difference and how big of a help a mesmer can be.

Theos · Mar 18, 2006, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

i think good players are going to know what a mesmer is capable of, and that they can do feats such as soloing a mursaat boss... the thing is, 90% of the players in GW will not realise this, and this probably includes the mesmers themselves

Mesmers are probably the hardest class to play in pve, most pve mesmers are going to be pretty bad, and incapable of doing all these wonderful things that they can actually do... due to this, I would personally stay way away from mesmers in pve. Now a bad ele on the other hand can still do a crap load of damage, they may not be great but nuking in pve is a pretty brainless thing, doing these mesmer things isn't so brainless

You hit the nail on the head. Only thing with Pugs/Most Groups is that they lack those intelligent players who have found guilds and party with their guilds. I, for instance, gave up on PUGs, not because it was hard to find one but more because all they wanted was domination ><. So now I play with my guild, and I'm loving it :P .

And you are right, I have encountered other mesmers in PvE, I assume myself to play well, when I watch them I want to cry. All I see is backfire, pause, backfire. "I dealz leet damage". Sometimes a waestrels appears... not much interupting though. Lots of damage skills... I think people got confused when making a character, thought they were making an elementalist not a Mesmer. Ahh well, tis the bane of cookies and big numbers.

ElinoraNeSangre · Mar 18, 2006, 09:18 PM // 21:18

IMO, if someone doesn't welcome a Mesmer to their team, they don't know what they're missing. I play N/Me, and the Me skills are great; I can shut down a caster in no time, and use N skills mess up non-casters (it's possible to use N for both I guess, but the Me skills are just so good for that). It isn't the best solo build, no, but in a group, I can weaken the enemies fast and furious, and then we can wail on them. Mesmers are awesome to have on a team for that reason, but I could see how it would take a certain kind of person to get it right.

I think my next character might be a Mesmer; I love a good challenge, and I love the clothes. :: laugh :: Frankly, I think that I lot of builds that catch on are the ones like 55hp monks and the standard cookie cutter ones, and that's what's in demand in a lot of circles (and there's nothing wrong with that if you enjoy playing it). Many people are about the power builds, and less about the balance and fun that comes with playing a good character that you can just have fun with.

Part of this might be the game's design; to a large degree, the game isn't as group friendly as it could be in PvE (how many times are you sitting in a town with 20 people going "LFG" and it doesn't seem to occur to them that duh, maybe they should group up?).

Then again, I've only been playing 5 weeks, so maybe I'm just not jaded yet, or haven't caught on to something yet that everyone else already figured out.

Backfire and empathy are all fine and good, but they're easy. You cast them, then go do whatever. There's some skills for interrupting spells or skills, though, that if you pay attention to your enemy and have your fingers ready, you can stop the enemy from even getting the spell out to do the backfire damage. That's the stuff I love. A good Mesmer is like a good healing Monk; you can't only do it half right. It's all or nothing.

-Eli

lg5000 · Mar 18, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElinoraNeSangre

Part of this might be the game's design; to a large degree, the game isn't as group friendly as it could be in PvE (how many times are you sitting in a town with 20 people going "LFG" and it doesn't seem to occur to them that duh, maybe they should group up?).

There are several reasons for people not starting a group. In my case, it's a severe lack of orientation skill. I can't lead a group if I have no idea where I'm going. If I actually know where I'm heading though, I have no problems making a group. Alternatively, if I think that as a mesmer I'm not going to get into a group, I'll start one cause its a little hard to kick the leader of a group.

ElinoraNeSangre · Mar 18, 2006, 11:44 PM // 23:44

And if you're a group looking for people, you're more likely to get them.

I keep some maps around for when I don't have any idea, and it helps a bit.

Richie · Mar 19, 2006, 03:40 AM // 03:40

a lvl 15 w/r spamming "glf 2 more for galrath 1 monk pls" in toa rejected a lvl 20 me/n invite.......sad so i left

o and henchies ftw

Matsumi · Mar 19, 2006, 07:20 AM // 07:20

I've had some of the most annoying times trying to find a group in places, but then I switched to henches in the desert. Got to thirsty river and immediately got an invite for some reason, so I accepted, thinking "Cool somebody thinks I'm useful for one mission." So, everything was going smoothly for a while, priests were killing themselves, getting power spiked, etc. Then before we entered the last area with the monk boss, the ranger tells me to keep backfire on the priest the entire time, "and we'll win!" So, I sadly informed him that backfire only lasts on bosses for a few seconds and isn't really effective. So he responds back by saying, "Well what good is that then?" "That sucks!". So then I just told him to focus on the priest, and he'll be dead in no time, not letting him know what I planned to do about it... regardless, we won, and it didn't look like I was doing anything. Must have been the savage/distracting shot or something else that pwned the priest and the boss, yay! I get kind of tired of making other people feel good sometimes, lol. Or if it WAS me, it must of been backfire, whoa, lol. Honestly, I could of done the mission with henches, just felt loved that time, aww.

dae elle · Mar 19, 2006, 09:14 AM // 09:14

What annoys me in groups:
-Wars and Eles yelling at me because I am not focusing my attack on the called target.
-People telling me to not use Chaos storm on mobs attacking our monk because it makes them run away. I know it makes it run away, thats why I put it there so the monks are left alone.
-people telling me to use backfire a lot. Its a nice spell and all, but really not that great in PvE. I rather use an interuppt.
-People telling me I am not interrupting enough when there is another interrupt rng in the group.
-People telling me to do something because I am not attacking and all I am doing is "twirling".

VGJustice · Mar 19, 2006, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by dae elle

People telling me to do something because I am not attacking and all I am doing is "twirling".

Anyone who says that is an idiot and can't be trusted to know which end of their sword is the buisness end.

But, yeah, I get pretty peeved when people tell my Word healer to use Breeze. I mean... wtf?

I don't tell others what skills to use, you know your char better than I do. But, yeah, after 1 healing Monk and 1 War to hold aggro, I take all invites. Maybe look for another Monk in 8 man areas, but that's it. And Mesmers are dead useful against bosses. Shutdown/e-denial/armor bypass... heck yeah.

studentochaos · Mar 19, 2006, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Minus Sign is right. Most are too impatient to recognize the value of a mesmer in Pve. The skills you start with aren't jaw dropping and this may put off many new players. This would also affect their mentality of how good mesmer is later on too.

Mesmers don't get in pugs for farming because pugs follow cookie cutter group builds. However, a "pro" farm team values speed above all else. If you can put out good damage quickly on a large scale you are a valuable part of a team. A good mes can replace an SS on a farm run of Sorrow's furnace (however diversion is useless against the monk bosses, try it, they cheat and have multiple copies of orison on their bars, use arcane theivery if you don't beleive me

). The reason they don't get on teams is both that mesmer players don't understand farming (overgeneralization) and that farm teams don't understand mesmers (more overgeneralization). However, a good FOW or UW team will almost always have a mesmer.

Mesmers will find their home with age. Have faith. I am a big beleiver that with the new elite missions mesmers will be required in good groups. A mesmer can shut something scary and aweful down (be it caster or melee), elite mission to me says it will have lots of scary and aweful things that MUST be shut down. Anyway, all SS necros are actually mesmers in disguise. Players think they are piloting a necro, but really it is all reactive and shut down play. This would suggest that there is hope for mesmers to find a home (my SS carries domination skills, and on my runs you won't see a single well of suffering or rez cast successfully).

Additionally, it is very possible that when elite missions come out only the current top Pvp players will transition to top Pve. The reason is that good Pvp players know positioning and energy management, things most (not all, but certainly most) Pve players couldn't care less about, and thus will fail when the bar is raised. The plus side for mesmer players in this scenerio is that mesmers are understood for their potential in PvP so these same players will bring this understanding to their PvE play.

=HT=Ingram · Mar 19, 2006, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Illusionary weaponry Mesmers tank better then Warriors sometimes.

The interruption and Degen abilities of mesmers are unprecedented...

Often this is an underappreciated class... Only because not enough people know how to use it... For successful Elite areas, Mesmers are a must... If your planning on clearing out the Underworld or Fissure of Woe and doing all the quests... Or for that matter in the Fire Island missions... Mesmers are a powerful class to add to a balenced party...

I like my Mes/ necro... All I can say is boy it can be a fun build... And its challenging to play. Give it time. Just like the ranger more people will discover their worth...

WasAGuest · Mar 19, 2006, 02:47 PM // 14:47

The other day, someone made a comment about mesmers that I rather liked. I remembered this thread and thought I would share it - since it's snowing outside and I'm bored.

The player was trying to get into a group, I was just using henchies but noticed she kept asking over and over. I invited her, and said I was just using henchies but she was welcome to come with me.
She said "ok" and after a minute or two I asked her is she often couldn't get into a group. She said she always had troubles.
After a few minutes into a few fights I noticed how well she played the Mesmer. I told her that she was really good and here's where she said "I play the Mesmer like my catholic school teacher taught. When someone does something they shouldn't, I slap their hand and they get punished for it".
She was playing a Domination build, and for the mesmers out there, you can guess what she was doing to "spank" the mobs. hehe

So, I guess Mesmers' are now the "School teachers" we all fear(ed).

Misbehave and you'll get slapped down.

yesitsrob · Mar 19, 2006, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

Illusionary weaponry Mesmers tank better then Warriors sometimes.

The interruption and Degen abilities of mesmers are unprecedented...

Often this is an underappreciated class... Only because not enough people know how to use it... For successful Elite areas, Mesmers are a must... If your planning on clearing out the Underworld or Fissure of Woe and doing all the quests... Or for that matter in the Fire Island missions... Mesmers are a powerful class to add to a balenced party...

I like my Mes/ necro... All I can say is boy it can be a fun build... And its challenging to play. Give it time. Just like the ranger more people will discover their worth...

Interesting, I would like to know how an IW mesmer (why IW in particular) can "tank" better than a warrior - ~60 as opposed to about ~80 armor, sure they can have physical resitance or elemental resistance....

nothing is a must in PvE, grab and go with a couple of monks works just fine if the players have a tincy wincy bit of a knowledge on the game and what they are playing